sexual appetite

krishnamurti in dialoguewith dr. allan w. anderson j. krishnamurti wasborn in south india and educated in england. for the past 40 years he has been speakingin the united states,



europe, india, australia,and other parts of the world. from the outset of his life's work he repudiated all connections with organisedreligions and ideologies

and said that his only concern was to set man absolutelyunconditionally free. he is the author of many books, among them the awakeningof intelligence, the urgency of change,freedom from the known, and the flight of the eagle. this is one of a seriesof dialogues between krishnamurti and dr.allan w. anderson, who is professor ofreligious studies

at san diego state university where he teaches indianand chinese scriptures and the oracular tradition. dr. anderson, a published poet, received his degreefrom columbia university and the union theological seminary. he has been honoured with thedistinguished teaching award from the californiastate university. a: mr. krishnamurti,last time we were speaking

you made the remarkthat fear and pleasure are opposite sidesof the same coin. and, as i remember,when we concluded our last conversation, we werestill talking about fear. and i was thinking,perhaps we could move from fear into thediscussion of pleasure. but perhaps there issomething more about fear that we need stillto look into, to explore. k: sir, i think for most of us

fear has created such misery, so many activitiesare born of fear, ideologies and gods, that we never seemto be free completely from fear. that's what we were saying.a: that's what we were saying. k: and so 'freedom from' and freedomare two different things. aren't they?a: yes. k: freedom from fearand the feeling of being completely free.

a: would you say thatthe notion even of 'freedom for' is also a suggestion of conflict?k: yes. a: yes, yes, do go ahead.k: yes. freedom for,and freedom from, has this contradictionin itself, and therefore conflict, and therefore a battle,violence, struggle. when one understands thatrather deeply, then one can see the meaningof what it means to be free.

not from or for,but intrinsically, deeply, by itself. probably it's anon-verbal, non-ideational happening. a feeling that all the burdenhas fallen away from you. not that you are strugglingto throw them away. the burdens don't exist. conflicts don't exist. as we were sayingthe other day,

relationship thenis in total freedom. a: your word 'intrinsic'interested me. sometimes, i think,in our tongue we will use the adverbialpreposition 'in'. would it be possibleto say 'freedom in' or would you not evenwant to have 'in'? k: not 'in', no.a: you don't want 'in'. k: for, in, from.a: they are all out. i see, yes, yes, go on.please do.

k: so, these two principles, pleasure and fear, seem to bedeeply rooted in us, these two principlesof pleasure and fear. i don't thinkwe can understand pleasure without understanding fear. a: i see. i see. k: you can't separate them,really. but for investigating

one has to separate. a: yes, were it not for fear,do you think we... k: we would never havethought of pleasure. a: we would never havegot the notion. k: no. a: i understand. k: it's like punishmentand reward. if there wasno punishment at all, nobody would talk about reward. a: yes, i see.

k: and when we aretalking about pleasure i think we ought to be clear that we are not condemningpleasure. we are not tryingto become puritanical or permissive. we are trying to investigate,or examine, explore, the whole structureand nature of pleasure as we did fear.a: as we did fear. k: and to do thatproperly and deeply,

the attitude of condemnation, or acceptance of pleasure,must be set aside. you see it, naturally. i mean if i want toinvestigate something, i must be free from myinclinations, prejudices. a: the 'looking forward to' is, i see, beginning to emergefrom what you are saying. yes. we say we lookforward to pleasure, we even ask a person - don't we? -what is your pleasure.

we get nervous in thinkingthat perhaps we won't meet it. now i take it that whatyou are saying suggests the anticipation ofgratification here. would that be right?k: yes, that's right. gratification,satisfaction, and sense of fulfilment. we will go into all thatwhen we talk about pleasure. but we must be clear fromthe beginning, i think, that we are not condemning it.

the priests throughout the worldhave condemned it. a: yes, the notion of freedomis associated with many religiousapproaches to this. one is free from desire.k: yes. so, one has to bear in mindthat we are not justifying it, or sustaining it, or condemning it,but observing it. to really go intothe question of pleasure, i think one has to lookinto desire, first. the more commercial

and the usage of things, the more desire grows. you can see it:commercialism and consumerism. through propaganda desire is, you know, sustained, is pushed forward - what is the wordi am looking for? - is nourished, expanded. a: nurtured.k: nurtured.

inflamed, that's the word, inflamed.a: inflamed. k: and you see this happeningright through the world now. in india, for example - not that i know india muchbetter than i do america, i've not lived there very long,i go there every year - this desire andthis instant fulfilment is beginning to take place. before, in thebrahmanical orthodox sense, there was a certain restraint,

a certain traditional discipline, which says, 'don't be concerned withthe world and things. they are not important. what is important isthe discovery of truth, of brahman, reality'and so on. but now, all that's gone, now desire is being inflamed. 'buy more',

'don't be satisfiedwith two trousers, but have a dozen trousers'. this feeling ofexcitement in possession is stimulatedthrough commercialism, consumerism, and propaganda. a: there's a lot of terror,isn't there, associated with commercialism on the part of those who arepurveyors in this, because the pleasure fades off,

and this requires astronger stimulus next time. k: that's what the couturiersare doing, every yearthere is a new fashion, or every six months,or every month, i don't know what it is. look, there is thisstimulation of desire. it is really quitefrightening in a sense, how people are using, are stimulating desire

to acquire money, possession, the whole circle of a life that is utterly sophisticated, a life in which there is instant fulfilmentof one's desire, and the feeling if you don'tfulfil, if you don't act, there is frustration. so all that's involved in it. a: would you say then that

the approach to this on thepart of what you have described is on the basis of frustration. frustration itself is regardedas the proper incentive. k: yes. that's right.a: yes, i see. yes. and since frustrationitself is a nullity, we are trying to suggest that nullity is in itselfinterested in being filled. whereas it couldn't beby its nature. k: like children:don't frustrate them.

a: yes.k: let them do what they like. a: yes, that reminds meof something years ago in graduate school. i was brought up as a childin england, and in a rather strict way compared withthe permissiveness of today. and one of my graduatecolleagues told me that he had been brought up by his parents in atotally permissive way. this wasat columbia university.

and he looked at meand he said, 'i think you were better off, because at least you hadsome intelligible reference, against which tofind out who you are, even if what youfound out wasn't right, there was somethingto find out. whereas i had to do itentirely on my own and i still haven't done it'. and he talked abouthimself as being constantly

in the worldtrying to hide the fact that he was a nervous wreck. we had a longconversation over dinner. k: sir, i think that,before we enter into the complicated field of pleasure, we ought to go intothis question of desire. a: yes, yes. i'd like to do that. k: desire seems to be a very active anddemanding instinct,

demanding activity that isgoing on in us all the time. so what is desire? a: i wonder if i could ask you to relate it to appetite as over against whatone would call hunger, that is natural. sometimes i have found a confusion - that seemsto be a confusion to me, and that's why i am asking you.

someone will get the ideain class, talking about the questionof appetite and desire, that if we look to nature,the lion desires to kill the antelopeto satisfy his appetite. whereas it has seemed to methe correct reply to that is: no, that's not the case. the lion wants to incorporate the antelope intohis own substance. he's not chasing his appetite.

k: i think they are bothrelated, appetite and desire. a: yes. k: appetite, physical appetite, and thereis psychological appetite. a: yes, yes.k: which is much more complex. sexual appetite, and the intellectual appetite, a sense of curiosity. a: even more furious.k: more furious, that's right.

so, i think,both desire and appetite are stimulatedby commercialism, by consumerism, which isthe present civilisation actively operating in the worldat the present time, both in russia, everywhere, this consumerismhas to be fulfilled. a: right. we talk aboutplanned obsolescence. k: planned obsolescence.quite, quite.

a: you have that in mind,yes, i see. k: so, what is appetiteand what is desire? i have an appetite,because i am hungry. it's a natural appetite. i see a car, and i have reada great deal about it, and i would liketo possess it, drive it, feel the power of it,going fast, the excitement of all that.

that is another formof appetite. k: appetite,intellectual appetite of discussing witha clever, intelligent, observing man or woman, to discuss, to stimulateeach other in discussion. k: and comparingeach other's knowledge, a kind of subtle fight. a: making points.k: points.that's right. and that is very stimulating.

a: oh yes, yes, it is. k: and there is thesexual appetite, the sexual appetite ofconstantly thinking about it, chewing the cud. all that, both psychologicaland physical appetites, normal, abnormal. the feeling of fulfilmentand frustration. all that's involvedin appetite. and i'm not surewhether religions,

organised religionsand beliefs, whether they will not stimulate the peculiar appetitefor rituals. a: i have the notion they do. it seems to me that, despite pious protestationsthat will be made against that, there is a theatrical displaythat occurs in this. k: go to a roman catholic mass, and you see the beauty of it,the beauty of colour,

the beauty of the setting, the whole structureis marvellously theatrical and beautiful. a: and for the moment it appears that we have heaven on earth. k: tremendously stimulating. a: but then we have to go out again.k: of course. and it's all stimulatedthrough tradition, through usage of words,chants,

certain association of words,symbols, images, flowers, incense, all thatis very, very stimulating. and if one is used to that,one misses it. a: oh yes, yes. i was thinking as youwere saying about as... - at least to my ear -extraordinarily beautiful a languageas sanskrit, and the chanting of the gita, and the swayingback and forth,

and then one sits down tostudy what the words say, and one says to himself,now look, what on earth is going onwhen we are doing this, as over against what theword itself could disclose. but the seductionthat is available, of course it's self-seduction, one can't blame the languagefor being beautiful, it's a self... and all this is encouraged.

and the notion, i take it, that you are suggestingwe look at here, is that there's atremendously invested interest in keeping this up.k: of course. commercially it is. and if it is notsustained by the priests, the whole thing will collapse. so is this a battleto hold the human being in his appetites,

which is really veryfrightening when you look at it. frightening in the senserather disgusting in one way, exploiting people, and intrinsicallydestructive to the human mind. a: yes. yes. i've had this problemin teaching in my classes, in terms of my owndiscussion in class. sometimes it has seemed that maybe the first stanzaof a poem

that i will have known by heart would be appropriate. and so i begin to recite it, andwhen i get to the end of it, the expectation has arisen,the ears are there, the bodiesare leaning forward, and i have to stop, you see, and i have to say, well,you see, we can't go on, because you are not listeningto what i am saying,

you are listening tohow it is being said. and if i read it terribly, you would no morelisten to what it is. your disgust would dominate just as the pleasureis dominating now. and the studentshave got after me for not reciting more poetry. you see that you wouldbe upset with that! it is a perfect signthat you haven't started

to do your work in class yet. and then we are up againstthe problem that they think i am being asceticaland denying the goodies. that's part of what you mean. k: yes, of course.a: good, good. i'm glad you clearedthat for me. yes. k: and there is this desire,appetite - we have a little bit goneinto it - what is desire? because i see somethingand immediately i must have it:

a gown, a coat, a tie,the feeling of possession, the urge to acquire, the urge to experience, the urge of an act that will give metremendous satisfaction. the satisfaction might bethe acquisition, acquiring a tie, or a coat, or sleep witha woman, or - acquiring. now, behind that, isn't there,sir, this desire. i might desire a house andanother might desire a car,

another might desire tohave intellectual knowledge. another might desire god or enlightenment. they are all the same. the objects vary,but the desire is the same. one i call the noble, the other i call the ignoble,worldly, stupid. but the desire behind it. how does it come about

that this very strong desire is born, is cultured? you follow? what is desire? how does it take placein each one of us? a: if i've understood you,you've made a distinction between, on the one hand, appetite associatedwith natural hunger, that sort of desire, and now we are talking aboutdesire

which sometimes getsthe name 'artificial', i don't know whether youwould want to call it that, but sometimes...k: desire. i might desire, but theobjects vary, sir, don't they? a: yes, the objects vary. k: the objects of desire varyaccording to each individual, each tendencyand idiosyncrasy, or conditioning, and so on. desire for that, and that,and that.

but i want to find out,what is desire? how does it come about? i think it's fairly clear that. a: you mean a sense of absence? k: no, no. i am asking what is desire?how does it come? a: one would haveto ask himself. k: yes, i'm asking you,how does it come about that there is this strong desire

- for or against -desire itself. i think it's clear: perception, visual perception, then there is sensation, then there is contact and desire comes out of it. that's the process, isn't it? a: oh yes, i'm quite clearnow what you are saying. i've been listening very hard.

k: perception, contact,sensation, desire. a: and then, if the desireis frustrated, anger. k: all the rest of it, violence. all the rest of it follows.a: follows. k: so desire. so the religious people, monks,throughout the world said, 'be without desire. control desire. suppress desire'. or if you cannot, transfer it

to something that's worthwhile: god, or enlightenment,or truth, or this, or that. a: but then that's justanother form of desire: not to desire.k: not to desire. of course. a: so we never get out of that. k: yes, but you see,they said, 'control'. a: power is brought into play.k: control desire. because you need energyto serve god, and if you are caughtin desire,

you are caughtin a tribulation, in trouble, which willdissipate your energy. therefore hold it,control it, suppress it. you have seen this, sir,i have seen it so often in rome, the priests are walkingalong with the bible, and they daren't lookat anything else, they keep on reading it,because they are attracted, it doesn't matter, to awoman, or a nice house, or a nice cloak,so keep looking at it,

never expose yourselfto tribulation, to temptation. so hold it, because you needyour energy to serve god. so desire comes about throughvisual perception, contact, sensation, desire. that's the process of it. a: and thenthere's the whole backlog

of memory of that in the pastto reinforce it. k: of course, yes.a: yes. i was taken withwhat you just said. here's this book,that's already outside me, it's really no more thanwhat they put on horses when they are in a race.k: blinkers! a: blinkers. k: the bible becomes blinkers! a: the blinking bible. yes, i follow that.

but the thing that caughtme was, never, never quietly looking at it. k: that's it, sir.a: the desire itself. k: i walked once behinda group of monks, in india. and they werevery serious monks. the elderly monk,with his disciples around him, they were walking up a hilland i followed them. they never once lookedat the beauty of the sky, the blue,the extraordinary blue

of the sky and the mountains, and the blue light,the grass, and the trees, and the birds, and the water- never once looked around. they were concerned and theyhad bent their head down, and they wererepeating something, which i happen to knowin sanskrit, and going along, totally unaware of nature, totally unawareof the passers-by.

because their whole life has been spentin controlling desire and concentratingon what they thought is the way to reality. so desire there acted as a repressive limiting process. a: of course, of course.k: because they are frightened. if i look,there might be a woman, i might be tempted- and cut it.

so, we see what desire isand we see what appetite is, they are similar.a: yes. would you say appetite wasa specific focus of desire? k: yes, put it that way if you want.yes. a: all right. k: but they both go together.a: oh yes, yes. k: they are two different wordsfor the same thing. now, the problem arises: need there be a controlof desire at all? you follow, sir?

a: yes, i'm asking myself,because in our conversations i've learned that every timeyou ask a question, if i take that question and construe it in termsof a syllogistical relation to things that have beenstated as premises before, i am certainly not going tocome to the answer - that is, not the right answer as overagainst the wrong answer - i'm not going to come to theone answer that is needful. so every time you'veasked me this morning,

i have asked myself inside.yes, please go ahead. k: you see, discipline is a form of suppressionand control of desire, religious, sectarian,non-sectarian, it's all based on that- control. control your appetite, control your desires. control your thought. and this controlgradually squeezes out

the flow of free energy. and yet, amazingly, the upanishads in particular, have been interpretedin terms of tapas, as encouraging this control. k: i know, i know. in indiait is something fantastic! the monkswho have come to see me - they are called sannyasis -they have come to see me.

they are incredible. i mean, if i can tell you, a monk, who came tosee me some years ago, quite a young man, he left his house and homeat the age of 15 to find god. and he had renouncedeverything. put on the robe. and as he began to grow older,at 18, 19, 20,

sexual appetitewas something burning. he explained to mehow it became intense. he had taken a vow of celibacy,as sannyasis do, monks do. and he said, day after day,in my dreams, in my walk, in my going to a houseand begging, this thing was becoming so...like a fire. you knowwhat he did to control it? a: no, no, what did he do?k: he had it operated. a: oh, for heaven's sake!

is that a fact? k: sir, his urge for god was so- you follow, sir? the idea, the idea, not the reality.a: not the reality. no. k: so he came to see me, he had heard several talkswhich i had given in that place. he came to see me in tears. he said, 'what have i done?' you follow, sir?a: oh, i'm sure. yes.

k: 'what have i done to myself? i cannot repair it. i cannot grow a new organ. it is finished'. that is the extreme. but all controlis in that direction. i don't know if i am... a: yes,this is terribly dramatic. the onewho is sometimes called

the first christian theologian,origen, castrated himself out of, as i understand it, a misunderstandingof the words of jesus 'if your hand offendsyou cut it off'. k: sir, authority to me is criminalin this direction. it doesn't matter who says it. a: and like the monkthat you just described, origen came later to repentof this in terms of seeing that

it had nothing to do with anything.a terrible thing. was this monk, if i may ask, also saying to you in his tearsthat he was absolutely no betteroff in any way, shape or form? k: no, on the contrary, sir,he said, 'i've committed a sin. i've committed an evil act'.a: yes, yes, of course. k: he realisedwhat he had done. that through that waythere is nothing. a: nothing. k: i've met so many- not such extreme forms

of control and denial -but others. they've tortured themselvesfor an idea. you follow, sir?for a symbol, for a concept. and we have sat with themand discussed with them, and they begin to see whatthey have done to themselves. i met a man who ishigh up in bureaucracy, and one morninghe woke up and he said, 'i'm passing judgementin court over others, punishment,

and i seem to say to them:i know truth, you don't, you are punished'. so one morning he woke upand he said, 'this is all wrong. i must find out what truth is',so he resigned, left, and went away for 25 years to find out what truth is. sir, these people are dreadfullyserious, you understand? a: oh yes.k: they are not like cheap repeaters of somemantra and such rubbish.

so somebody brought himto the talks i was giving. and he came to see methe next day. he said, 'you are perfectly right. i have been meditatingon truth for 25 years, and it has been self-hypnosis,as you pointed out. i've been caughtin my own verbal, intellectual formula,structure. and i haven't been ableto get out of it'. you understand, sir?a: 25 years.

that's a very moving story. k: and to admitthat he was wrong needs courage,needs perception. a: exactly. k: not courage - perception. so, seeing all this, sir, the permissiveness on one side, the reaction tovictorian way of life, the reaction to the world

with all its absurdities,trivialities, and banality, you know, all that absurdity, and the reaction to thatis to renounce it. to say,'well, i won't touch it'. but desireis burning all the same, all the glands are working. you can'tcut away your glands! therefore they say, control, therefore they say,don't be attracted to a woman,

don't look at the sky, because the sky isso marvellously beautiful, and beauty then may becomethe beauty of a woman, the beauty of a house, the beauty of a chair in whichyou can sit comfortably. so don't look. control it. you follow, sir?a: i do. k: the permissiveness,

the reaction:to restraint, control, the pursuit of an idea as god, and for that- control desire. and i met a man again: he left his houseat the age of 20. really quitean extraordinary chap he was. he was 75when he came to see me. he had left homeat the age of 20, renounced everything,all that,

and went from teacherto teacher to teacher. he went to - i won'tmention names, because that wouldn't be right - and he came to me,talked to me. he said, 'i went toall these people asking if they could help meto find god. i've spent from theage of 20 till i'm 75 wandering all over india. i'm a very serious man,

and not one of themhas told me the truth. i've been to the most famous,to the most socially active, the people who talkendlessly about god. after all these years i returned to my houseand found nothing. and you come along', he said, 'you come along,you never talk about god. you never talk aboutthe path to god. you talk about perception.

the seeing 'what is'and going beyond it. the beyond is the real,not the 'what is'. now show me'. you understand? he was 75. a: yes, 55 years on the road. k: they don't do thatin europe, on the road. he was literally on the road. a: yes. i'm sure he was.because you said he was in india. k: begging from villageto village to village.

when he told me i wasso moved, tears almost, to spend a whole lifetime,as they do in business world. k: 50 years to go dayafter day to the office and die at the end of it. it is the same thing.a: the same thing. k: fulfilling of desire,money, money, money, money, more things, things, things;and the other - none of that, butanother substitute for that. a: yes, just another form.

k: so looking at all this, sir, i know it is dreadfulwhat human beings have done to themselves and to others; seeing all that, one inevitably asks the question: how to live with desire? you can't help it,desire is there the moment i see something- a beautiful flower, the admiration, the love of it,

the smell of it,the beauty of the petal, the quality of the flower,and so on, the enjoyment. one asks: is itpossible to live without any control whatsoever? a: the very questionis terrifying in the context of these disorders that youare speaking about. i am taking the part now of the perspective that one is in,when, out of frustration,

he comes to you, let us say, like the man did after55 years on the road; the minute he walks inthe door he has come to get somethinghe doesn't already have. and as soon as youmake that statement, if the answer that is coming up - he starts 'if-ing' right now - if the answer is going to be somethingthat completely negates

this whole investmentof 55 years on the road, it seems that most persons aregoing to freeze right there. k: and it isa cruel thing too, sir. he has spent 55 years at it and suddenly realiseswhat he has done. the cruelty of deception.you follow? a: oh yes. k: self-deception, deceptionof tradition - you follow? - of all the teacherswho have said, control, control, control.

and he comesand you say to him, what place has control? a: i think i am beginningto get a very keen sense of why you say, 'go into it'. because there is a place there like dropping a stitchwe might say. he doesn't get pastthat initial shock, then he is not goingto go into it. k: so we talked, i spent hours,

we discussed, we went into it. gradually he saw. he said, 'quite right'. so, sir, unless we understand the nature and the structureof appetite and desire, - which aremore or less the same - we cannot understandvery deeply pleasure. a: yes, yes.

i see why you have been goodenough to lay this foundation before we get tothe opposite side of the coin. k: because pleasure and fear are the two principlesthat are active in most human beings,in all human beings. and that isreward and punishment. don't bring up a child throughpunishment but reward him. you know, the psychologistsare advocating some of this. they are encouraged by theexperiments on pavlov's dogs.

k: dogs, or peoples,or ducks, geese. do this and don't do that. so, unless we understand fear, understand in the sense,investigate, see the truth of it, and if the mind is capableof going beyond it, to be totally free of fear, - as we discussedthe other day - and also to understandthe nature of pleasure. because pleasure isan extraordinary thing,

and to see a beautiful thingand to enjoy it - what is wrong with it? a: nothing.k: nothing. see what is involved in it. a: right.the mind plays a trick there. i say to myself, i can'tfind anything wrong with it, thereforenothing is wrong with it. i don't really believe thatnecessarily. and i was thinkinga little while ago

when you were speaking about the attempts through powerto negate desire, through power. k: because search for power, negating desireis search for power. a: would you be sayingthat one searches for power in order to secure a pleasure that has not yet been realised? k: yes, yes. a: i understood you well then?k: yes.

a: i see. it's a terrible thing. k: but is a reality.a: oh, it's going on. k: it's going on.a: oh yes. but we are taught thatfrom children. k: that's just it, sir. so, pick up any magazine,the advertisements, the half-naked ladies,women, and so on, so on. so, pleasure is a veryactive principle in man, as fear.a: oh yes.

k: and again society,which is immoral, has said, control. one side - the religious side -says, control, and commercialism says,don't control, enjoy, buy, sell. you follow? and the human mind says,this is all right. my own instinct is to have pleasure,i'll go after it. but saturday, or sunday,or monday, or whatever the day it is,

i'll give it to god. you follow, sir?a: yes. k: and this game goes on,forever it has been going on. so what is pleasure? why should pleasurebe controlled, i'm not sayingit's right or wrong, please let's be veryclear from the beginning that we are notcondemning pleasure. we are not saying you mustgive reign to it, let it run.

or that it must besuppressed or justified. we are trying to understand why pleasure has becomeof such extraordinary importance in life. pleasure of enlightenment. pleasure of sex. pleasure of possession.pleasure of knowledge. pleasure of power. a: heaven, which is regarded

as the ultimate pleasure...k: the ultimate, of course. a: ...is usually spoken of theologically asthe future state. k: yes. a: this is to mevery interesting in terms of whatyou have been saying, and even at the levelof gospel songs we hear 'when the roll is called up yonderi'll be there'. when it's called up yonder,

which meansat the end of the line. and then there's the terror that i won't be good enoughwhen... k: when that...a: yes, so i'm tightening up my belt to paymy heavenly insurance policy on saturday and sunday, the two days of the weekendthat you mentioned. what if you got caughtfrom monday through friday?

yes. k: so, pleasure, enjoyment, and joy.you follow, sir? there are three things involved.a: three things. k: pleasure.a: pleasure. k: enjoyment and joy.a: joy. k: happiness. you see,joy is happiness, ecstasy, the delight, the senseof tremendous enjoyment. and what is therelationship of pleasure to enjoymentand to joy and happiness?

a: yes, we have been movinga long way from fear. k: fear, that's right. a: yes, but i don'tmean moving away... k: no, no.a: ...by turning our back on it. k: no, we have gone into it,we see the movement from that to this,it's not away from it. pleasure. there is a delight in seeingsomething very beautiful. delight. if you areat all sensitive,

if you are at all observant, if there is a feeling ofrelationship to nature, which very few peopleunfortunately have, they stimulate it, but the actual relationshipto nature, that is,when you see something really marvellously beautiful, like a mountainwith all its shadows, valleys, and the line,

you know, it's something- a tremendous delight. now see what happens: at that momentthere is nothing but that. that is, beauty,of the mountain, lake, or the single tree on a hill, that beauty has knockedeverything out of me. a: oh yes. k: and at that moment there is no divisionbetween me and that.

there is sense ofgreat purity and enjoyment. a: exactly, exactly. k: see what takes place. a: i see we've reached a pointwhere we are going to take a new step,i feel it coming on.

sexual appetite Which is mixed with the use of drugs hajar jahanam ,it's amazing how this thinghas moved so inevitably but not unjoyfully. not unjoyfully. in our next conversationi would just love to pursue this.